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Episode 17 | Safety And… Human Performance with Joshua Ockmond by LAPCO FR

Safety And... Human Performance: In this episode, Lauren chats with Joshua Ockmond, Incident Investigation and Reporting Advisor for Chevron, exploring safety from a global perspective, the importance of bridging the gap between workers and safety managers, using incident learnings to improve safety cultures, and play a game of cultural word exchange.




This podcast is sponsored by LAPCO Manufacturing. LAPCO: premium workwear since 1989.




0:00:28.2 Lauren Brizendine: Hello listeners, welcome to Safety And. A laughing and learning podcast where we talk about safety and whatever else is on your mind. And y'all, we have a great show planned for y'all today, 'cause we are talking about safety and human and organizational performance with our guest, Joshua Ockmond, welcome to the show, Josh.


0:00:51.7 Joshua Ockmond: Hey. Thanks for having me Lauren, this is pretty cool.


0:00:55.5 LB: Yeah. I will tell our listeners, my typical pullover, because Joshua and I know each other, which this has just kind of been a cool thing with the podcast. A lot of people that we've gone to school with, 'cause you and I went to school together, Josh, work in safety and a lot of hazardous industries. So, it's been real interesting to connect with people and get their stories, and then it's like, "Oh yeah, and we also know each other from back in the day." So, it's always... It always makes for just a fun, good kind of conversation that I really enjoy. So, thank you so much for being on our show.


0:01:38.7 JO: Yeah, no worries. This is like I said, this is really cool what y'all are doing, you and LAPCO and... Yeah, we've known each other since kindergarten. So, I think I downloaded a bunch of your podcasts, listened to 'em, it's really cool what y'all are doing... Unfortunately, this may be a new low for your show...


0:01:57.0 LB: Oh my gosh.


0:01:58.4 JO: Having me on it.


0:02:00.0 LB: No, no, no.


0:02:00.1 JO: I may be the most unprofessional guest you've had on, and we'll see.


0:02:04.4 LB: No. No, indeed. Well, I do wanna just jump right into that. So, do tell our listeners a little bit more, 'cause I know we've talked about it, but tell our listeners about the role that you play in safety and what has gotten you to the role that you're in currently?


0:02:25.3 JO: I think like many, it's been a little bit of a crazy ride. It was somewhat of an accident, we ended up going to college out locally in Thibodaux (Harvard on the Bayou). And I was actually pre-law, and I took an oilfield class just out of the hopes that I would use it in litigation, oddly enough, and I fell in love with it, and so I took an internship offshore with Chevron actually in the Gulf of Mexico and started as an operator, and I loved it. And then back in 2005, Hurricane Katrina comes through and much like it did to Southern Louisiana and Mississippi it wreaked havoc offshore. And we needed somebody to help in the rebuilding, help keep people safe and also figure out how we fit in with these government regulations that were pretty outdated for what we were doing. And so, I'm pretty simple-minded, and it was really hot outside, and the safety office had an air condition, so I said, "Yeah. That's me."


0:03:37.4 LB: You were like, "I'll sign up for that. Anywhere where there is an A/C." And y'all in Louisiana that is a big deal. So, I could definitely see that playing a role, but it's interesting because you're not the first guest to talk about that. To say that maybe I was going this way, and then I kind of fell into safety. So definitely... And you've been doing that for 20 years, correct?


0:04:01.5 JO: Yeah, yeah.


0:04:02.1 LB: Since that time. Well...


0:04:03.6 JO: We moved from offshore, went into training, went into the office and then have been working on and off overseas since. So, yeah.


0:04:12.4 LB: Well, I'm sure you've seen the industry evolve quite a bit over the last 20 years. Can you tell us a little bit more about how your industry specifically has evolved?


0:04:24.3 JO: Safety is interesting because I think the easiest way to explain it is we've really matured. Over my career and my life, I think we can all attest that we've seen technology change so much. And in some ways I think safety kind of lagged behind in some of it. And when I started, it was very much a blame culture. We relied heavily on lagging safety metrics, behavior-based safety observations, which I can honestly say I never actually completed a real one, they were basically creative writing exercises for me.


0:05:07.3 LB: Well, creative writing is important. Like let's not dog it, for sure.


0:05:13.1 JO: No, no, no, no. It has its place. I'm just not sure if it's place is in the workforce, like trying to prevent incidents. But we wanted the perfect human and then, so we got really hot and heavy on operating procedures. And we wanted robots doing the same tasks the same way every time. And then we jumped on the JSA, JHA, whatever your company wants to call it. And basically, we said, "If you got hurt, if you had a spill, if you had an incident, and you didn't cover it in this War and Peace size of a JSA, well, that's your problem." And we finally realized that none of this crap works. And so, in the last five years, I think you've seen us really moving away from that old safety adage or theory, if you will.


0:06:06.6 LB: Yeah. Well, I know that I've listened to some of the things that you've done. And you said that safety guys are just professional tattletales. So, I kinda wanna delve into that and break that down a little bit. Because first of all, I probably haven't heard the word tattletale since we were in school together. But yeah. Tell me exactly... I think I know what that means, 'cause I've had some conversations. But tell us really, not necessarily what that means, 'cause it's obvious. But how it relates to what you do and kind of how it's led you to be passionate about this human performance and change management.


0:06:52.0 JO: Yeah, so I hate safety cops. Sorry, I just do. If you think you are...


0:07:00.0 LB: Is that what they're called? Safety cops? I like it. I'm just here for it.


0:07:02.7 JO: I hope not. The way I look at it is, if you think your job is to just walk around in your pristine little uniform and go tattle on Billy every time you see him without a hard hat or his FRCs rolled up, I don't want you as part of my organization. You don't really... You're not a benefit to me or the workers. And I think going back to the conversation of the last question, this is our challenge about how do we mature into the safety professionals where we are finally starting to understand that our job is not just to go tattle on the workers. We're here to help the workers. And as safety people, we may not like to say it, but we don't pay the bills. You can't go buy safety on the commodities exchange.


0:08:00.4 LB: Yes.


0:08:00.8 JO: So, our role is really to be that olive branch to the worker. The work is gonna happen with or without us. So, it's important for us to help and be able to be there and identify those critical safeguards that we need in place for those tasks and ensure that they're functioning.


0:08:19.8 LB: Yes. Well, I wanna kind of go into that a little bit further because you are moving soon. So, you talked a little bit about your global travels, but you're also moving soon to Kuwait.


0:08:35.3 JO: Kuwait. Yeah we were in... I was in Kazakhstan. Now I'm going to Kuwait. So yeah. Just K's everywhere.


0:08:42.9 LB: And I do wanna talk about safety from a global perspective. Do you see some of the same challenges that we see here? How are those things different maybe from a global perspective?


0:08:56.4 JO: Yeah. [chuckle] It's an interesting question because it sounds cliche, but the world is small. It really is. And I think if there's one thing the pandemic has showed us, especially through technology, like you and I are doing this conversation now, is technology has made it even smaller. And...


0:09:15.2 LB: Yes.


0:09:16.8 JO: I think when I look at it from what I see in the different places I've been it's... Our biggest challenge in safety is with emerging countries. And what I mean by that is, so gone are the days where these US, or UK or Japanese or whoever First World companies would go in and run the show, and were really needed to do that by some of these emerging countries. But one of the things we've learned is that it's... Talent isn't just limited to these First World countries. There is incredibly talented people across the globe. And so, our role is really transitioned into being a partner for these projects and these companies. And bringing them along and really getting them to where we think we are, maybe? I don't know if that's a good way to say it, but yeah.


0:10:23.2 LB: And do you take a lot from them as well? So, is it...? I see it as a little bit of a two-way street. I'm sure there's a lot that we can bring to the table. But are there different things that you're picking up just to bring back to some of the safety cultures here?


0:10:42.7 JO: Well, what I'll say is, as... I used to joke with some of the folks in Kazakhstan. I used to call myself the Arrogant American when they would just come in with this brilliant idea and it's like, if you haven't traveled globally, it's easy to think that way.


0:11:04.9 LB: Yes.


0:11:05.1 JO: And going into Kazakhstan, for example, a very poor country, but some of the most brilliant humans I've ever been around, and it was so cool.


0:11:13.0 LB: Yes.


0:11:15.0 JO: It was my first overseas assignment, and I went in thinking, "Here comes this... Josh is gonna save the world. Or at least the country." So, I set the bar. And... [chuckle]


0:11:25.7 LB: Yeah. Start with the country and then conquer the world.


0:11:29.0 JO: Yeah.


0:11:29.4 LB: For sure.


0:11:30.1 JO: Yeah. But in all honesty, it was the other way around and Kazakhstan really saved me in many ways. And I learned so much just about empathy and just about humanity from them. And Borat got it completely wrong, I will say that.


0:11:47.3 LB: [chuckle] Well, I'm so glad you brought that up just because I do think that once you do travel the world, it does give you a different perspective on things that to your point, you realize not just that the world is small, but maybe your perspective is very small too. So, it...


0:12:07.7 JO: Yup.


0:12:07.8 LB: I'm sure it opened up your eyes in so many ways. Now I wanna talk about just some of the barriers with safety cultures. And perhaps how can you demonstrate good health and safety even when there's barriers. So, I'm sure that you've experienced cultural barriers. Maybe just... We're gonna talk more about behavior, but even behavioral barriers. So, how can you still have that good safety culture despite all of these things?


0:12:41.9 JO: You know, and it can be difficult it's... My first comment would be, "Your way is not the only way." First and foremost. For sure. And really secondly, is look for those locals wherever you are that are really picking up what you're putting down. They have the same belief, beliefs that you do. And so, I'll go back to Kazakhstan. Chernobyl, the HBO mini-series did it right. Because they portrayed the USSR spot on to what they were at the time. And really, that culture is carried over, and Kazakhstan is a former USSR country, and they were very... Culturally, they were very blame-oriented, very regimented. They wanted robots by culture, that's really what they were looking for. And I had this young lady on my team and she just... She got the human and organizational performance theory really early on, and you could tell she had a lot of passion for it, so I just let her run with it. And instead of me feeling like I have to drive this process, I'll let her do it. And she did an incredible job and just having it come from a peer, a Kazakh to a Kazakh or an American to American, whatever you are. Because of our biases, it does help. It does help.


0:14:21.9 LB: Yes. Well, and I think this is when diversity and inclusion kind of become a bigger deal, because people can offer different perspectives, like you said, regardless of where they're coming from, but that leads me a little bit into my next question. And we're gonna dive in a little bit deeper to the human performance aspect after the break, but what's an individual contribution that perhaps someone can make on the job site that could better help their safety practices? 'Cause I'm sure you've probably implemented quite a few. You've been part of several safety solutions, but just if I'm out there, what's something I can just do to maybe contribute to just a better safety work culture?


0:15:16.7 JO: So first and foremost, I would say, involve the people that actually do the work. That is first and foremost.


0:15:23.1 LB: I have heard that before. Like there is a little bit of a gap between the safety managers and the people actually doing the work. So, it's interesting that that's... Or maybe it is not interesting that that's the first thing you bring up because I've heard that just... There's such a disconnect sometimes, so definitely having that worker input, I think is the right thing as well.


0:15:49.9 JO: Yeah, if you are building a safety initiative or a program and you look around the room and there is just a bunch of safety dudes and women in the room, you are doomed to start, to scrap it and start over. But other than that, I would say, as far as what to do on the job site, look like help. If you are not there to hinder, you are not a roadblock, a speed bump, look like help, and again, be that olive branch to the worker. And the best thing we can do as safety professionals is really empathize with the worker and understand the full context of the situation they're in and help them to be able to adapt to any changes in their work situation.


0:16:43.4 LB: You're bringing up some really interesting points like empathy and compassion. I think those are two aspects of humanity that kinda go a long way that maybe you are not used to hearing when we talk about safety. So, I'm really glad that you brought those up for sure.


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0:18:00.4 LB: So welcome back, listeners. I am here with Josh Ockmond, and we're talking about human and organizational performance. And I want you to tell us more about that. I really want to dig deeper into human and organizational performance, and a little bit about what it is and what makes you so passionate about it.


0:18:22.0 JO: So, I'm gonna... What I'll do, Lauren, is I will do justice to the definition as your previous guest in the nuclear power industry did. So, I'll start off by telling you what human performance is not.


0:18:34.9 LB: Okay.


0:18:36.4 JO: It is not behavior-based safety, it is absolutely not. If you look back at the adages of behavior-based safety, we were trying to fix the human... In human and organizational performance, we understand that we suck, we're gonna make a mistake, we're going to fail, and it's because of this that we want to identify, not all the work, but the critical work and build capacity around the workers in those situations, so, not if but when they fail, it doesn't matter. So, we're really trying to understand how the human interacts with the system.


0:19:24.1 LB: Right.


0:19:24.3 JO: And people... If you've been around human performance long enough, you get aggravated with all these aviation examples, but commercial aviation, that's where it clicked for me. So, if you go back to the '60s, and you had a plane crash, and some punk safety guy like me shows up and does the investigation... Again, reminder, I'm not very professional.




0:19:50.5 LB: That's okay, this is a conversation, I love it.


0:19:54.7 JO: Yeah. So, the plane crashes, it's a terrible situation, hundreds of people are dead, investigator shows up and the root cause comes to pilot error. So, what do we do? Well, it didn't take many of these tragedies killing hundreds of people for these airline companies to realize that it's not really in our business interest to keep blaming dead pilots. It was the old name, blame and re-train mentality. So, they did something really cool that took a lot of other industries a long time to adapt to. And they realized that, as a worker, the engineers, the workers on site, the pilots, whoever they are, they only have so much bandwidth to fix things, to do the work that they need to do. So, what they did is they moved the majority of their efforts to protecting their core business, which is making sure the Boeing, or the Airbus left and returned with everyone still alive on board.


0:21:01.2 JO: And big part of that is they went to the design, and they identified the most critical components of the airplane that kept it flying, and they added double and triple redundancies, and really made the airlines, airliners, the planes, so error-tolerant that basically the pilot has to try to crash the plane. And really they made it today that pilot errors, they really don't matter. To be honest, we don't realize it, but every time we get on a flight, the pilot makes a mistake. He or she does. But they've made the system error-tolerant enough that those mistakes don't matter. Sure, your drink service or the baggage handlers might not get the attention they used to, but you live.


0:22:00.2 LB: Right. Well, the fact that you said [chuckle] that the pilot's making a mistake, all I'm thinking is like, I hope no one is listening to this on the plane right now. Typically, I would hope that everyone's listening to it on the plane, but maybe you just landed and... [chuckle] But, so I guess with all that being said, do you think that workplace injuries are preventable?


0:22:30.1 JO: I don't. And even if we could, I don't know if we should. You know if we could make them all preventable. I believe it's way past time for us to retire that stupid pyramid. I'm sorry, it was built to sell life insurance. I'll argue till the cows come home about it. I'm just worried about the tip. I'll start and stop with fatalities and serious injuries. That's where it is for me, and the same with these stupid signs that say, "I'm 165 days since my last incident." What does that tell you? It doesn't tell you a damn thing about tomorrow.


0:23:11.5 LB: Yeah.


0:23:11.7 JO: And so, where I am is we really need to look to change our definition of safety. As humans, we love to count things, to say how good or how bad we are. But, like I said, yesterday really doesn't mean anything for tomorrow, and it really is about us changing our definition of safety. So, safety isn't the absence of incidents. Safety is the presence of safeguards, and really that's how we should view it. It's not an all or none. If we have this really high-risk activity, and we look at the mitigations for it, and we can only mitigate it down to, maybe the worker ends up with a broken leg; look, that's not the greatest outcome, but it's still a hell of a lot better than them dying. And in some instances, maybe that's okay.


0:24:09.6 LB: Well, I do like that you are putting it into the perspective of learning from your mistakes a little bit, as well. Just you saying that maybe it's naive to think you can have a completely preventable workplace, but I like the idea of when things do happen, we're learning from them. Versus it's just this number that we're trying to get to. It seems a little bit more intimate when you're learning from those mistakes. Now, I do wanna ask you about organizational learning. Now, this is a corporate buzz word, or at least when I read it, I was like, organizational learning sounds like, I don't know, it sounds like something me as a marketer would put together. But can you elaborate a little bit on exactly what that is and how it relates to human performance?


0:25:09.4 JO: Yeah. So, this is big for me, especially, like I said, in a previous life I was a trainer and I've been doing incident investigations for some time. And we say that the goal of all these things is learning, but we're not always successful in that regard. And so, we had one of our guys had said one time that, "We can either learn and improve, or we can blame and punish. You can't do both." And so, until organizations agree with that and practice what they preach, it's really difficult to learn. And so, from an investigation standpoint, this means that maybe we don't go out and investigate the broken leg or the laceration, because we look at it and it's pretty straight forward and we really don't see any learnings from it, but yet we go and we have the conversation with the scaffold builders who don't have any incidents, but we understand the risk of their work, and so we talk to them, we talk to them, the actual worker, there's a novel idea... About...


0:26:20.0 LB: Yeah. Somebody said you should do that. I don't know, I've heard that it's a good idea. I don't know where I heard that though.




0:26:27.3 JO: You know, it's... And talk to them and let them tell you what challenges they face, and help them develop ideas and solutions to their high-risk work, that's where the learning opportunities are.


0:26:46.0 LB: And I think when people feel involved in the process, there seems to be a better outcome, a better outcome for success. But I just wanna thank you for chatting with me about this, because this is a topic that, yes, when we talked about it in an earlier episode, I really learned so much from it. Because I always, I say in a lot of episodes that working... Or designing safety apparel, sometimes even myself, I don't really understand what the workers are going through or how they're feeling in the clothes and stuff. So, I'm always interested in these types of topics, and just how you're saying just to talk to them and that will help improve things too, I think is really on point with a lot of what we've talked about, for sure.


0:27:43.7 JO: Yeah, no. That's where it begins and ends.


0:27:47.5 LB: Yes.


0:27:47.9 JO: With the workers.


0:27:50.0 LB: Well, and you've had some nuggets of quotable quotes in here, I just... I'm like, I'm super excited to go...


0:27:58.3 JO: That's scary. [chuckle]


0:28:00.3 LB: No, it's really great, and I just appreciate you so much for being on our show. Now, I do like to give our guests an opportunity to let our listeners know where they can find you or if they wanna learn more about human performance, if there's any place you can direct them.


0:28:18.0 JO: Yeah, sure. So, first and foremost, I would send you to two guys who are the gurus of this stuff, intelligent human beings, way higher IQ than me, and that's Bob Edwards and Todd Conklin. Those two guys, you Google them, you'll get tons of information. I do ramble on YouTube every now and then when I need to vent at No Safety Guys Allowed, you can look me up there. But I would really start with Todd and Bob, and those two guys are, they are the fathers of this, if you will.


0:28:57.2 LB: And I listened to a few of your No Safety Guys Allowed. It's really good. You are very like, tell it like it is, and I love that. [chuckle] It's so good.


0:29:08.1 JO: Well, I think that's what we need to be. Get away from the corporate buzzwords and the political correctness. Sometimes, you just have to call it like it is.


0:29:18.6 LB: Well, and to kinda circle back, when we were talking about from a global perspective, sometimes even communicating globally, you can't have a lot of those buzzwords and jargon, you need to be more direct. Just, again, from just a cultural perspective, you can't use all these flowery words and ambiguous language, for sure. Well, Josh...


0:29:46.0 JO: That's a great point.


0:29:47.0 LB: Thank you so much for being on our show. Now, I don't know if you... We didn't really talk about this, but I do end all my shows with something fun. Mostly because, like your episode, I would say, sometimes when we talk about safety, we mentioned someone who might get injured or break a leg, some of these things that I know I don't like to think about, right? I don't like to think about people getting hurt, but I mean it is a safety podcast, so we're gonna talk about some of these things, right?


0:30:22.6 JO: Kinda comes with the territory.


0:30:23.0 LB: Yes, but I do like to have a palate cleanser, just a fun palate cleanser, just to close out the show and give people a little bit of a laugh. But we talked about culture, right? So, I thought it would be fun if we threw out a couple of Cajun words. Now for all of our Louisiana listeners, I'm sure that I will give these words out and they will be screaming the definitions, because obviously our Louisiana listeners know all these words and use all these words on the daily. But I thought it would be fun just from a cultural perspective, I'll give you a couple of words and you can just tell our listeners what they mean. Or if you have a few extra words that you know, from a global perspective, that you wanna tell us how to say hello... Keep it clean, it's a clean podcast. [chuckle]


0:31:16.0 JO: Oh! That's a rough one.




0:31:19.9 LB: But yeah, just something to kinda keep it light, keep it on the positive. But the first word I'm gonna give you, and we all know what this means, it's kind of my favorite thing, is lagniappe. Can you tell our... Can you tell our listeners a little bit about lagniappe and what that is?




0:31:42.0 JO: Well, that's just... So, it's something extra, right?


0:31:44.8 LB: Yes.


0:31:45.3 JO: And in...


0:31:46.1 LB: Like this game.


0:31:46.9 JO: In the Southern...


0:31:47.4 LB: This game is a little bit of lagniappe for the podcast, for sure.


0:31:52.0 JO: Yeah. It's a little something extra. And in South Louisiana, we have a way of giving you a little something extra. It's like the baker's dozen.


0:32:01.6 LB: Yes, exactly.


0:32:02.5 JO: That I guess if you wanna compare it, right?


0:32:05.7 LB: Is there something translatable in a different language that means like... I know there is, but something that you know or that you've come across?


0:32:15.1 JO: I'm gonna have to say, I don't know that one.


0:32:17.0 LB: Yeah. I don't think I do either.


0:32:19.7 JO: I'm sure there's a Russian word for it, but I don't for the life of me, I can't think of it.


0:32:26.1 LB: Now, the next word is, it's a verb, guys, and it's called Roder. Now, this is something my mom tells me all the time. She's like, "Oh, you're going roder today?" And I was like, "You know me."


0:32:41.4 JO: This was us in high school when we got our driver's license, right?


0:32:46.4 LB: Yes, it was.




0:32:47.4 JO: So, we live in a small town, there's really nowhere to go, so you just ride around. You would, roder, you would just drive around with really no destination in mind.


0:32:58.5 LB: I'm not in high school anymore, and I still do that. I need it to clear my head. Now, this is something that I wanna talk about culturally, a parrain and a nanny. That's something maybe we, here in Louisiana, use differently than most people, right? But that's basically like a godmother and a godfather, right? Yeah, so just extra people in your life that can help out. I feel bad for...


0:33:36.0 JO: Yeah, it's like the guardianship.


0:33:37.6 LB: Yes, and I feel bad for our Louisiana listeners right now, so I'm gonna let you make...


0:33:43.1 JO: They're all rolling eyes at us...


0:33:44.4 LB: I know, they're like, "I can't believe this girl is trying to teach us about sayings in Louisiana." But, fun fact, we have a lot of listeners in Lake Stevens, Washington. So hey, shout out to you guys, and here's a little cultural lesson about where we are. Do you have any other fun words or phrases from...? Or in your travels that you've come across? I learned how to say, "Too expensive," in Cantonese. So, I think it means tai guile, 太貴了, if you're out in China and you find something that's too expensive, you can use that one. You're welcome, America.


0:34:24.6 JO: [chuckle] That's what you're here for. I will say in my travels, if... The oddest thing I've ever been around is Australians, and specifically the ones from around the Perth area, they are so close to South Louisianians, it's insane.


0:34:42.1 LB: Oh really?


0:34:42.2 JO: It is the weirdest thing. We gravitate to one another.


0:34:44.2 LB: Oh, my goodness. Well, shout out to Australia. I'm gonna have to check our metrics and make sure we get some listenership there, 'cause we have some kindred spirits, for sure.


0:34:55.5 JO: Yeah, it's... I'll throw some easy ones out. It's Russian, but the first things I learned was how to... "Yes" and "no", which is "да" is "yes" and "no" is "нет". And oddly enough, again, I say Kazakhstan was USSR, so they predominantly don't speak Kazakh, they speak Russian. And then it's "hello" and "goodbye", or simply, "Привет and Пок". So, it's...


0:35:29.2 LB: You say Привет, I say Пока. Is that how you say it?




0:35:37.1 JO: But it's... It is funny how those things come into play, I'll give you... Go back to your Cajun heritage. And so, for those in Louisiana listening, one of the things that blew my mind as a 20-something-year-old going offshore, every facility I went to served seafood on Friday, seafood, and gumbo on Friday, they serve steak on Saturday, fried chicken on Sunday, and red beans and rice on Monday. Which is such a New Orleans, Louisiana, Creole thing, that it was amazing to me that everywhere you went that was the menu. You knew what you were eating on those days.


0:36:13.0 LB: Now, do I need to go to Australia for that schedule? Or do I need to get a Kazakhstan for that schedule? Because that sounds amazing.


0:36:22.1 JO: It's pretty... You get your freshman 15 and you're offshore 20, so...


0:36:26.6 LB: Yeah, let me tell you. Well, Josh, thank you so much for humoring me with this little game, and informing our listeners in Lake Stevens, Washington, and all over the country about some of our culture here. And really just talking about safety and organizational performance and giving us a bit of a global perspective. I was really excited about this episode because I knew you were well travelled and that we could delve into some of that, which was really great. So, I appreciate you so much. And thank you for being on the show.


0:37:02.2 JO: That's awesome. Thanks again, Lauren. And again, you and LAPCO, keep doing what you're doing, 'cause this is a really cool thing you got going on.


0:37:09.7 LB: Alright. And hey, if you wanna be on the podcast, and we didn't go to school together, that is okay too. So... Because, yeah, I love it. I have... So many people have reached out and it's been a really positive experience. So, I'm always happy to catch up, and just really hear people's stories about how we're all tied to this thing called safety and what we can learn from each other, for sure.


0:37:34.8 JO: Yes, ma'am.


0:37:36.2 LB: Special thanks to Joshua Ockmond, incident investigation and reporting advisor for Chevron, for being on our show today to talk about safety and human and organizational performance.




0:37:48.2 LB: If you enjoyed listening to the Safety And... Podcast today, be sure to like, review, or subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Also, if you're interested in being a guest on our show, please email marketing at, that's marketing at Since this is a safety podcast, we should probably mention this disclaimer. The Safety And... Podcast is recorded and made available by LAPCO Manufacturing Inc. Solely for informational and entertainment purposes. The statements, comments, views, and opinions expressed in this podcast should not be considered by any listener as professional provision and/or direct and specific course of action. The statements, comments, views, and opinions expressed here, including by speakers who are not employees or agents of LAPCO, are not necessarily those of LAPCO and may not be current. This podcast may not be reproduced, redistributed, published, copied, or duplicated in any form by any means without prior consent from LAPCO Manufacturing Inc. This is Lauren Brizendine with LAPCO, and remember safety doesn't happen by accident, so stay safe and see you next time on the Safety And... Podcast.




0:39:02.2 LB: The Safety And... Podcast is produced by LAPCO Manufacturing, with marketing and media by Lauren Brizendine and Tiffany Giroir, sound editing by Christopher Hanlon, and music by Smokehouse Beats.


0:39:13.5 LB: That was easy. Cool.